Coyote Con Transcript: Writing GLBTQ Fiction

Posted on 6:25 am in Blog, Craft | 2 comments

Join our panelists as they discuss writing GLBTQ fiction, where it’s selling, what consumers want and what the industry provides; what’s hot and what’s still taboo, what’s become normalized and what’s completely misunderstood. Learn what you can realistically include in your work, and what just won’t work no matter what you do.

Following is the chat transcript from the Coyote Con panel on how to write for GLBTQ markets. I joined fellow authors KL Richardsson & Kal Cobalt on Saturday, May 22nd. Barb Mountjoy moderated for us.

View this and other transcripts from all Coyote Con Panels at the Coyote Con website.
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[Babs M] 7:02 pm: Welcome all to the session on GLBTQ… for those not familiar, that stands (I think) for Gay, Lesbian, Bi, Trans and Queer…. Is that right?

[Oliver] 7:02 pm: No

[Babs M] 7:03 pm: Oliver?

[Oliver] 7:03 pm: q- QUESTIONING…

[Oliver] 7:03 pm: Sorry, didn’t mean to yell

[Oliver] 7:03 pm: A is for asexual…

[teresawymore] 7:03 pm: i’ve seen both for q

[kalcobalt ] 7:03 pm: So far I’ve seen GLBTQ where Q=queer, and GLBTQQ where the 2nd Q=questioning.

[teresawymore] 7:03 pm: i like queer, cause that’s what i call myself

[Oliver] 7:03 pm: Here in Michigan it is GLBTQA

[Babs M] 7:04 pm: Clearly a topic where discussion is warranted!

[kalcobalt] 7:04 pm: And it certainly isn’t an all-inclusive acronym, but it at least gives us an idea of the general territory.

[teresawymore] 7:04 pm: allies?

[Oliver] 7:04 pm: Yeah – I hear ya – I’m gender queer, so I understand completely…

[Babs M] 7:04 pm: Our panel is Kal Cobalt, KL Richardsson, and Teresa Wymore.

[kalcobalt] 7:05 pm: I am too, Oliver.

[Oliver] 7:05 pm: :up: Kal

[Babs M] 7:06 pm: Kal, would you like to introduce yourself?

[kalcobalt] 7:07 pm: Thanks! I’ve been writing gay male fiction for a couple of decades and have had it published over the last 10 years or so, particularly in Cleis Press anthologies. I’ve also had success with gay male and queer speculative fiction at Circlet Press, including my ebook ROBOTICA, which is all sexy robot stories of some queer bent or another.

[teresawymore] 7:08 pm: sexy robots…awesome

[kalcobalt] 7:08 pm: And I’ve just returned from a couple of conferences where I got a good idea of the state of GLBTQ fiction in SF/F.

[Babs M] 7:08 pm: Teresa, how about you?

[teresawymore] 7:08 pm: let’s see…I write mostly lesbian erotic fiction, both short and novel. I have a fantasy novel, Darklaw, coming out from DP soon. I have shorts in anthologies with Bella, Cleis, and DP. I think of my work as “lesbian” not f/f which might be an interesting discussion to have in this panel.

[Babs M] 7:09 pm: Indeed, Teresa. K.L. Richardsson?

[klrichardsson] 7:09 pm: I’m KL Richardsson, I write YA fantasy novels for Prizm Books, the YA line for Torquere Press. I wouldn’t say that my characters are omnisexual, but the world that I created doesn’t give a #$%^&* about who you pair with.

[Babs M] 7:10 pm: Nice place.

[klrichardsson] 7:11 pm: Well, it’s run by a telepathic empire, so I’m not really so sure.

[Babs M] 7:11 pm: So what IS the current state of GLBTQ lit in SF/F?

[klrichardsson] 7:12 pm: I think SF/F is definitely more open about it than any other genre.

[kalcobalt] 7:12 pm: I was surprised to find many doors much more open in the mainstream to GLBTQ lit in SF/F at the conference I just attended — and also surprised to find that there are some areas that still think having a gay character is Super Cutting Edge. It’s a lot more varied than I thought.

[teresawymore] 7:13 pm: I agree content is pretty open but it seems that lesbian fiction is not nearly so popular as gay, or m/m

[Babs M] 7:14 pm: Popular to readers?

[kalcobalt] 7:14 pm: Teresa, I wonder if that’s in the eye of the author? My perception, as a mostly m/m author, is that lesbian fiction is much more popular.

[klrichardsson] 7:14 pm: Hee. No worries. Yeah, Teresa, I’ve seen that too, unfortunately. There were theories as to why, but they all seemed prejudiced.

[teresawymore] 7:14 pm: some epubs have stopped even accepting f/f erotic it, and running through the lists, I always find 50 m/m for every f/f

[teresawymore] 7:16 pm: There’s a world of difference between mainstream and niche, though, isn’t there? mainstream likes having a gay character as long as he’s not the POV character

[Babs M] 7:16 pm: What’s the diff between f/f and lesbian?

[kalcobalt] 7:17 pm: Teresa, niche/mainstream definitely has some differences, but I’m not so sure about mainstream being that closed anymore. That hasn’t been my sense of late.

[klrichardsson] 7:17 pm: I agree with you completely there, Teresa. I think that’s why my YA novels are still niche, since the main characters in the (soon to be quartet) are all either gay or bi.

[teresawymore] 7:17 pm: about f/f…what I see is that f/f is written for non-identified lesbians, curious or bi who want a man somewhere nearby (boyfriend, watcher, thirds).

[klrichardsson] 7:18 pm: But isn’t most m/m (as opposed to gay literature) written by women, for women?

[teresawymore] 7:18 pm: yeah, niche markets allow anything, but sell little

[teresawymore] 7:18 pm: yes…which I still can’t quite figure out

[klrichardsson] 7:18 pm: The big print houses are all being a little leery now, though, no matter what you write. If you’re a new author, they don’t want to necessarily take the risk.

[teresawymore] 7:18 pm: m/m is booming

[kalcobalt] 7:19 pm: Well, most slash is written by women for women, but does it really matter who’s reading your stuff? If they like it, they like it, so what’s the problem?

[klrichardsson] 7:19 pm: I have no problems with anyone reading my stuff. Don’t care about the audience, as long as they read it.

[teresawymore] 7:20 pm: no problem but finding your market and selling can be confusing…one of my fave erotic lesbian books “Pirate Queen” is available on Ellora’s cave as the only lesbian book there.

[kalcobalt] 7:20 pm: Exactly, K.L.

[teresawymore] 7:20 pm: you have to scroll through 5 pages of m/m. No point in separating it out for one book but it gets hidden.

[kalcobalt] 7:21 pm: I think there’s always going to be confusion about finding your market, or readers finding your work, anytime you write in a smaller genre. Internet story sellers really help — the search function can probably mitigate the scrolling, for example.

[teresawymore] 7:22 pm: it used to until they threw all glbt into one category. If I recall it started out with lesbian separated out

[teresawymore] 7:22 pm: this is why it appears to be a shrinking market to me

[klrichardsson] 7:22 pm: The nice thing about epublishing, though, is that there is a market for everything. My books don’t sell a lot, but I can actually find a publisher.

[teresawymore] 7:22 pm: yes..this is a golden age in that way!

[klrichardsson] 7:23 pm: A friend of mine who is a decently established print author says that epublishing and small market may be the way of the future.

[klrichardsson] 7:23 pm: Especially in the GLBT field.

[teresawymore] 7:23 pm: I agree….and hope that’s true

[kalcobalt] 7:23 pm: Ditto, K.L. — I have no trouble finding markets for my work no matter how “out there” it is, it’s just a matter of finding the right publisher match for my stories. Which is the way of this industry no matter what you write, so.

[klrichardsson] 7:24 pm: As long as it’s written well!

[kalcobalt] 7:24 pm: Circlet Press, which focuses on erotic SF/F and publishes a lot of my stuff, has gone almost exclusively ebook at this point and they’re doing great.

[klrichardsson] 7:24 pm: I might have to check them out, Kal. Do they accept YA, or just adult?

[teresawymore] 7:24 pm: yes they have some great titles.

[kalcobalt] 7:24 pm: (btw that’s erotic SF/F of every stripe; Circlet’s a very openminded pblisher.)

[klrichardsson] 7:24 pm: Duh, erotic, nevermind.

[klrichardsson] 7:24 pm: My other, non YA persona would be interested in checking that publisher out, though.

[teresawymore] 7:25 pm: how does the non erotic glbtq sell compared to erotic?

[klrichardsson] 7:25 pm: (As I put on my other persona hat) My experience is that sexy sells better than plotty, but good plot helps good sex, and sells better than PWP.

[teresawymore] 7:25 pm: My focus is erotic, but i know that isn’t everybody :p

[klrichardsson] 7:26 pm: My focus is, for non-YA, usually the more romance-y, plotty stuff.

[kalcobalt] 7:26 pm: (K.L, please email me — I’ll happily give you some more details on Circlet.)

[teresawymore] 7:26 pm: honestly..YA must be hard to write!

[klrichardsson] 7:26 pm: My editor had a field day when I mentioned some stuff. I’m trying to keep it at a PG rating level, just because.

[Babs M] 7:27 pm: PWP?

[kalcobalt] 7:27 pm: Plot? What Plot?

[klrichardsson] 7:27 pm: Plot, what plot?

[teresawymore] 7:27 pm: hahahaha

[Babs M] 7:27 pm: Oh. LOL:red:

[klrichardsson] 7:28 pm: I think that’s why I stick to the YA. I don’t have to worry about the naughty bits being well written, since there aren’t any.

[kalcobalt] 7:28 pm: I find that stories where the sex and the plot can’t be separated from one another are both the most satisfying to read and what’s sought after most by the publishers I work with.

[klrichardsson] 7:28 pm: Exactly, Kal!

[kalcobalt] 7:28 pm: (when there’s erotic content involved, anyway.)

[teresawymore] 7:28 pm: always good advice

[teresawymore] 7:29 pm: there are some non epub that are heavyweights as far as quality lesbian erotica–bella books and bold strokes. I wish they’d go digital

[Babs M] 7:29 pm: What about the divisions between G, B, L, Q and T? IS the writing different for each?

[teresawymore] 7:29 pm: i hardly buy paper anymore

[klrichardsson] 7:29 pm: I’ve written G, B, and Q as questioning, and I haven’t really treated it as different.

[kalcobalt] 7:30 pm: Well, as an omnisexual pangendered author, I’ll bow out of that one as my focus not on the differences.

[klrichardsson] 7:30 pm: Ditto to what Kal said.

[kalcobalt] 7:30 pm: I like you, K.L.

[teresawymore] 7:31 pm: i wrote one m/m which will be out at DP down the road. Otherwise all lesbian. would B be the menage I see at epubs?

[teresawymore] 7:31 pm: did I spell that right? “menage”

[klrichardsson] 7:31 pm: Not necessarily. Soren, one of my boys, just likes both. Not together — well, maybe if you gave him the chance, but he is only 18.

[Babs M] 7:31 pm: mmhmm

[kalcobalt] 7:32 pm: B would be bisexual of any sort, not necessarily menage a trois tales.

[klrichardsson] 7:32 pm: I’ve never written serious menage of any gender content, just because the number of limbs confuses me.

[teresawymore] 7:32 pm: I havent’ read a menage but from the covers they all look m/m/f

[klrichardsson] 7:32 pm: That’s the most ’successful’ pairing.

[kalcobalt] 7:33 pm: K.L., I managed to write (and get published) a threesome once. It was hard. And it was m/m/m, so they aren’t all m/m/f…

[klrichardsson] 7:33 pm: As per Torquere Press. I don’t think they accept F/F/M.

[teresawymore] 7:33 pm: doesn’t sell?

[klrichardsson] 7:33 pm: I’ve seen m/m/m/m/m

[klrichardsson] 7:33 pm: Doesn’t sell as well.

[teresawymore] 7:33 pm: hahahaha!

[teresawymore] 7:34 pm: like adding blades to the razor, quantity makes everything better?

[klrichardsson] 7:34 pm: That particular novel just confused me.

[klrichardsson] 7:34 pm: More power to you for the attempt, but I can barely keep my “hes” straight with two.

[teresawymore] 7:34 pm: i don’t read much mainstream…do any of you find strong glbtq characters?

[kalcobalt] 7:35 pm: Yes!

[klrichardsson] 7:35 pm: I still love Marion Zimmer Bradleys “The Catch Trap.”

[kalcobalt] 7:35 pm: I highly recommend Charles Stross’s GLASSHOUSE for anyone interested in seeing really well-done alternate sexualities in a really great, steamy, hilarious, incisive mainstream SF novel.

[klrichardsson] 7:35 pm: And there are some good YA GLBTQ novels, like Hero and Alex Sanchez’s Rainbow Boys series.

[teresawymore] 7:36 pm: awesome

[klrichardsson] 7:36 pm: I mostly end up reading genre, in the end.

[kalcobalt] 7:36 pm: And there’s the seminal James Tiptree Jr. Award winners yearly, always a good place to go.

[teresawymore] 7:37 pm: i’ve been a little cyncal aboutmainstream but maybe i should plunge back in

[klrichardsson] 7:37 pm: How do the Lambda award winners do as far as quality of writing?

[kalcobalt] 7:37 pm: I’m not sure, I have a bit of a beef with the Lambdas ever since they decided the orientation of the author means more than the orientations depicted in the books, as far as who they hand out awards to. But I digress.

[teresawymore] 7:37 pm: yep

[klrichardsson] 7:38 pm: I guess that would be me three?

[klrichardsson] 7:38 pm: Next semester, I jump into the world of medieval queer theory as part of my PhD program, so I’m very excited about that.

[teresawymore] 7:39 pm: i did my senior thesis on medieval sexuality

[klrichardsson] 7:39 pm: Really, Teresa? You’re my new best friend.

[teresawymore] 7:39 pm: 14th century, actually

[Oliver] 7:39 pm: :up: I have a BIG beef with Lambda – the whole fiasco of lst year put a nasty taste in my mouth… more

[Oliver] 7:39 pm: Aren’t there any other GLBTQA support for authors? I mean, what is up with that?

[klrichardsson] 7:39 pm: None that I know of, Oliver. I know, for sci fi, there’s the Gaylactic Spectrum awards.

[teresawymore] 7:40 pm: the epic awards for epublishing started off with categories for lesbian dn gay but that all went to hell after year one.

[klrichardsson] 7:40 pm: And we won’t go into RWA.

[Oliver] 7:40 pm: Why isn’t the GLBTQA community coming together for support of the GLBTAQ writers effort? Where are the book contests? Book reviewers?

[teresawymore] 7:40 pm: amen

[klrichardsson] 7:40 pm: There are review websites. Rainbow Reviews is a good site. Elisa Rolle.

[kalcobalt] 7:40 pm: Oliver, I truly don’t get it. Since I write mainly gay male or gay male-slanted queer fic, this means I’ll likely never be eligible for a Lambda (I’m female-bodied and have no plans to change that). That seems just as unfair to me as any other discrimination against someone on basis of gender/orientation/sexuality.

[teresawymore] 7:41 pm: outer alliance

[kalcobalt] 7:41 pm: Rainbow Reviews, yes. The Outer Alliance, also. There’s a lot out there.

[klrichardsson] 7:41 pm: Outer Alliance! Whoo!

[teresawymore] 7:41 pm: small but chugging along with some impressive supporters

[Oliver] 7:41 pm: I was in on the grass roots effort for RWA’s Rainbow writers – but even with that, things haven’t changed much… they’ll take my gay money, but won’t give me member rites…

[kalcobalt] 7:41 pm: For folks who don’t know, by the way, Outer Alliance is specifically geared toward GLBTQ speculative fiction authors. Great resource.

[klrichardsson] 7:42 pm: That’s how I found out about this Con.

[kalcobalt] 7:42 pm: Same, K.L.

[widdershins] 7:43 pm: How do you create a major GBLTQ character for SF who is marketable but true to their GBLTQ-ness, both personally and politically?

[klrichardsson] 7:43 pm: I think Lynn Flewelling’s done a decent job, Widdershins.

[teresawymore] 7:43 pm: my opinion—avoid the politics

[widdershins] 7:43 pm: I agree

[widdershins] 7:43 pm: about Lynn

[klrichardsson] 7:43 pm: Make the novel not about the GLBTQ, and more about this wonderful person who happens to be GLBTQ who has awesome adventures.

[teresawymore] 7:44 pm: make your character queer as you want, but dont’ get self-conscious and explain her in the melieu

[teresawymore] 7:44 pm: at least, that’s what I like to read

[kalcobalt] 7:45 pm: Agreed, K.L. – and I don’t think that’s about minimizing the GLBTQ aspect, but about engaging a wider readership outside of the fringe element in question. I think you’d do it the same way you would any character who was centrally something most readers aren’t.

[Oliver] 7:44 pm: It was mentioned earlier GLBTQA SF/F is more open now. In what? Old school cookie cutter NY pubs? Or in genres across the board?

[Oliver] 7:44 pm: sorry

[teresawymore] 7:45 pm: in niche…totally open. in mainstream…i really haven’t seen POV characters yet

[klrichardsson] 7:45 pm: I think in genres across the board, Oliver. There will always be player-haters, but I’ve come across a number of GLBTQ characters from Tor, from Bantam, from the big powerhouses of SFF

[klrichardsson] 7:45 pm: Exactly, Kal! And Teresa.

[teresawymore] 7:46 pm: have a friend who reads lots of mysetries and is impressed at how often she runs across lgbt characters…all the POV’s friend!

[kalcobalt] 7:46 pm: Oliver, SF/F seems really open right now. The conference I just went to, which is a mainstream SF/F con, had panels on all kinds of alt sexuality, and those were always filled to capacity with readers both desperate for new left-of-mainstream reading and to share what they’d enjoyed reading so far.

[klrichardsson] 7:46 pm: Argh!

[teresawymore] 7:46 pm: she feels like she’s on the cutting edge

[Babs M] 7:47 pm: All friends but none of them the lover?

[klrichardsson] 7:47 pm: With genre’s tendency to head jump, it’s not always easy to find the protag anyway.

[teresawymore] 7:47 pm: i do think the readers want it but the publishers are hesitant?

[Oliver] 7:47 pm: Is it possible that ff or lesbian fic isn’t as popular b/c they have sequestered themselves away from the rest of the alpha bet soup (publishing wise?) No offence

[kalcobalt] 7:47 pm: But yeah, there’s still that hefty contingent of folks who think “gender and sexuality” = “feminism and G/L characters,” when in sci fi the field is so much more open to so much more than that.

[klrichardsson] 7:48 pm: I honestly can’t answer the lesbian literature question, unfortunately. I know there’s a lot of debate on it, and not all of it complimentary.

[teresawymore] 7:48 pm: males still vastly outnumber female protag in any genre…i really think it’s a woman issue more than a queer one

[teresawymore] 7:48 pm: making strides

[kalcobalt] 7:49 pm: I think it’s a situation where YMMV.

[klrichardsson] 7:49 pm: Everyone needs to read Butler’s Gender Trouble, Kal. And that’s a good point, Teresa. I like that idea a lot better!

[teresawymore] 7:49 pm: i don’t think it’s the lesbian writers….as i mentioned some epubs have stopped taking subs from f/f

[teresawymore] 7:50 pm: check out lesbian fiction forum someday to meet and see the writers and activity!

[Oliver] 7:50 pm: What is YMMV? And panel – do you have websites/twitters?

[klrichardsson] 7:51 pm: Your mileage may vary. and http://www.klrichardsson.com

[teresawymore] 7:51 pm: blog, FB, and twitter…see my page on this site or google teresa wymore

[klrichardsson] 7:51 pm: Oh, and the Facebook.

[kalcobalt] 7:52 pm: Sorry — your mileage may vary. And yes, I’m at http://www.kalcobalt.com and a blog at http://www.kalcobalt.com/blog — @kalcobalt on Twitter, and “kalcobalt” on just about any other social network…I barely live in the real world anymore.

[widdershins] 7:52 pm: @Therese … do you know why they’ve stopped… e pubs that is?

[teresawymore] 7:52 pm: ha, me too kal

[teresawymore] 7:52 pm: i saw one make the change and they posted it was about sales…i don’t recall which press it was

[teresawymore] 7:53 pm: just stroll through the lgbt listings on any epublisher and be amazed

[Oliver] 7:53 pm: I have been asked to write more trans stuff — as much as I am asked to write steam punk. I love the angst and deep story for f2M and m2F — why haven’t more folks written these characters?

[kalcobalt] 7:53 pm: Oliver, check out Circlet Press! Lots of TG stuff over there (and f/f, for the record), both being published and asked for.

[teresawymore] 7:54 pm: i’ve never read trans…that would be quite a feat to get inside the head of someone making that transition

[klrichardsson] 7:54 pm: I’ve read a couple novels from Torquere about trans characters, but it isn’t common. I wonder if that’s the final frontier in GLBTQ?

[teresawymore] 7:54 pm: yes…circlet’s always been a strong supoprter of f/f!

[kalcobalt] 7:55 pm: I don’t think writing trans is any harder than writing any other character experiencing a world you’re unfamiliar with — it’s all the same process of seeing the world through their eyes.

[Babs M] 7:55 pm: Oliver sent me material on this but I’d like to ask the panel–can women write m/m stuff? and vice versa? What tips do you have?

[kalcobalt] 7:55 pm: KL, I like to think of it more like the midpoint frontier.

[teresawymore] 7:55 pm: i don’t think as a writer that I would understand that body discomfort as trans people have mentioned

[kalcobalt] 7:56 pm: Why the heck not? I’ve written m/m for ages, and I’m female-bodied and used to be female-identified. I know tons of women who write m/m, and plenty of guys who write f/f, and plenty of people in between who write all kinds.

[teresawymore] 7:56 pm: in a way, trans is NOT about omnisexuality or genderqueer but the flip side of gender-identified

[kalcobalt] 7:56 pm: There’s a great anthology called Switch Hitters, with lesbians writing gay male stories and gay men writing lesbian stories, but it goes so much further than that.

[teresawymore] 7:57 pm: not the difference but the discomfort..that’s what I don’t feel

[klrichardsson] 7:57 pm: Yeah, I’m female-bodied and identified, and I don’t have an issue with it.

[kalcobalt] 7:57 pm: Teresa, no, you’re right, it’s not about omni or queer; it’s not about the flip side of gender-identified either, though — it’s about gender identification with the non-birth gender.

[Oliver] 7:57 pm: Circlet press – I was always under the impression they were f/f only. I’ll have to check them out.

Question: Is there a forum/message board/ yahoo group — something for GLBTQA writers to get together and help each other? Or is this something I’m gonna have to create? :rolleyes: (I believe in support and I really feel us GLBTQA authors are lacking a home base of sorts…)

[widdershins] 7:57 pm: Yah Ollie

[kalcobalt] 7:58 pm: Oliver, they are totally pansexual, have a call out now for third-gender stories, and everything they’ve published of mine has been m/m. Check ‘em out!

[kalcobalt] 7:58 pm: As for GLBTQA writers, I love The Outer Alliance right now for community and support.

[teresawymore] 7:58 pm: It seems gender-identified–a female who feels herself male identifies as male. if gender didn’t matter, no trans is necessary.

[klrichardsson] 7:59 pm: Gender, as a socially constructed/artificial label, does really get in the way of things.

[teresawymore] 7:59 pm: amen

[kalcobalt] 7:59 pm: Tell me about it, K.L….

[teresawymore] 7:59 pm: gender does not equal sex

[Oliver] 7:59 pm: preach it brother — sorry had too…

[kalcobalt] 7:59 pm: Teresa, exactly — I wasn’t saying gender didn’t matter, I was saying the opposite.

[klrichardsson] 7:59 pm: Outer Alliance is starting a list of friendly/nonfriendly pubs, and has a great group of supportive writers.

[teresawymore] 7:59 pm: oh

[klrichardsson] 8:00 pm: Hee.

[teresawymore] 8:00 pm: lesbian fiction forum has a list like this and calls too.

[Babs M] 8:00 pm: Gender does not equal sex?

[klrichardsson] 8:00 pm: There’s a YAGLBTQ author list.

[kalcobalt] 8:00 pm: No, Babs. Sex is physical. Gender is identity.

[klrichardsson] 8:00 pm: What Kal said.

[kalcobalt] 8:01 pm: Ooh, KL, do you have a link to that list? I’ve been interested in playing in YA eventually.

[klrichardsson] 8:01 pm: glbtqYAwriters on yahoogroups.

[kalcobalt] 8:01 pm: Thanks!

[PTurner] 8:02 pm: Any stereotypes you’re seeing lately?

[teresawymore] 8:03 pm: I’d say not so much about queer as about women & sex

[kalcobalt] 8:03 pm: I’m seeing a refreshing lack of sterotypes in the fiction I’m reading lately.

[PTurner] 8:03 pm: Not my original question, but I forgot that one. I’m wondering if there are any “new” stereotypes.

[teresawymore] 8:03 pm: chick lit has ‘em

[PTurner] 8:04 pm: Good to hear. I’m new to writing/reading m/m and I don’t want to make any mistakes.

[kalcobalt] 8:04 pm: Good luck, PTurner!

[klrichardsson] 8:04 pm: I think the genre’s finally getting over the seme/uke (bottom/top) thing from yaoi/Japanese Boy’s Love lit.

[widdershins] 8:04 pm: @Therese “lesbian fiction forum has a list like this and calls too” is the end of the sentence missing?

[teresawymore] 8:04 pm: still all those fetish anthologies around

[kalcobalt] 8:05 pm: Fetish is a stereotype?

[teresawymore] 8:05 pm: sorry…meant that lff has lists about friendly publishers

[klrichardsson] 8:05 pm: BDSM still festers a lot of bad stereotypes.

[teresawymore] 8:05 pm: fetish is full of them don’t you think?

[kalcobalt] 8:05 pm: Uh, as a healthy BDSM practitioner, I object…a lot of the fic does that, yes, but a lot of it doesn’t.

[klrichardsson] 8:05 pm: Yeah, I meant the fic, Kal.

[kalcobalt] 8:06 pm: Teresa, not really…fetishes are a practice, not a stereotype.

[teresawymore] 8:06 pm: not talking about real life but the lit describing it is pretty bad in my experince of the real deal

[kalcobalt] 8:06 pm: KL, so did I — there’s plenty of healthy BDSM fic out there.

[Babs M] 8:06 pm: oliver?

[Oliver] 8:06 pm: You know what cheeses me off? Signing up for a program on line and they insist I choose between male and female….:nono: as for YAGLBTQA — my gawd! What a mouthful! Talk about alphabet soup! Campbells wouldn’t touch that with a fork… emmm, I mean spoon… As for sex/gender- what ever — I go with orientation and leave it be… oh – comment – stereo types – I’m p!ssed that effeminate men are black listed – what is my gay world without my gurls? They are a staple as June Cleaver is!

[teresawymore] 8:06 pm: but in creating fetish stories, the roles are assigned and carried out without developing character much

[kalcobalt] 8:07 pm: Oliver, thank you kindly. I hate the M/F radio buttons too. I want to kill them with fire.

[kalcobalt] 8:07 pm: Teresa, I’ve written fetish stories that weren’t like that — I think it’s another YMMV thing. There’s bad characterization and good characterization in all genres, and I don’t think fetish stories are unduly poor.

[klrichardsson] 8:07 pm: That’s why I really wish we could all just be people. Why do we need to be gendered? Manly men? Girly girls? All stereotypes do is hurt people, even if it does make it easier for some writers to create stories.

[kalcobalt] 8:08 pm: I love you, K.L.

[teresawymore] 8:08 pm: i like manly girls

[Babs M] 8:08 pm: ha! my daughter is a manly girl…

[Oliver] 8:08 pm: The sign of a true talented writer is to take a stereotype and embellish it – breathing new, fresh life into it…

[teresawymore] 8:08 pm: i did read a terrific bdsm in the fairy tales anthology put out by circlet recently

[teresawymore] 8:09 pm: i think that was a new author, too…hope to see more of her writing

[klrichardsson] 8:09 pm: I’d love to see that rec, Teresa. I ‘ll have to check that out. I love fairy tale anthologies.

[Babs M] 8:10 pm: I’d like to thank our panel, Teresa Wymore, Kal Cobalt and KL Richardsson for joining us this evening for a truly informative and wide-ranging discussion!

[klrichardsson] 8:10 pm: It’s been awesome. Thank you for the excellent moderation, Babs.

[kalcobalt] 8:11 pm: Thank you, Babs! And thanks to all who came by — this is my last Coyotecon panel and I’m glad to have seen you all.

[Babs M] 8:11 pm: My pleasure. You all did a great job.

[widdershins] 8:11 pm: One for the road…. favourite GLBTQ character?

[Oliver] 8:11 pm: Thanks — I enjoyed this

[widdershins] 8:11 pm: SF character

[klrichardsson] 8:11 pm: Danilo Ardais from the Darkover books.

[riversway] 8:11 pm: thanks great panel

[kalcobalt] 8:11 pm: Widder: the guy in the novel I’m going to write.

[teresawymore] 8:11 pm: kl…Quatre Grey in Like a Queen

[klrichardsson] 8:12 pm: Or maybe Alec from Lynn Flewelling’s books

[teresawymore] 8:12 pm: thanks!

[widdershins] 8:12 pm: @Kal…. hafta buy it then!

[klrichardsson] 8:12 pm: Thanks, Teresa!

[riversway] 8:12 pm: gee Ollie didn’t know you could be soo passionate:D

[kalcobalt] 8:12 pm: Aww, thanks Widder

[Oliver] 8:12 pm: :red:

[kalcobalt] 8:12 pm: OK, it’s dinnertime in this neck of the woods — I hope to see you all around the ‘net! Enjoy the rest of the conference!

[teresawymore] 8:12 pm: bye

[Oliver] 8:13 pm: Yeah – what can I say? I’m a passionate queer for my queers…

[klrichardsson] 8:13 pm: Fare thee well, all. Happy reading!

[teresawymore] 8:13 pm: we’ve got another weekend…a few more panels for me

[PTurner] 8:13 pm: Thanks!

[widdershins] 8:13 pm: @Therese… great… enjoy your company

[riversway] 8:13 pm: @ Ollie ……good for you:kiss:

[Oliver] 8:13 pm: I’ll be here — I’ll be lost when June rolls around…

[teresawymore] 8:13 pm: thanks widdershins

[widdershins] 8:14 pm: @Ollie … me too