Coyote Con Transcript: Writing Erotica and Erotic Romance

Posted on 5:53 am in Blog, Craft | 0 comments

We discussed erotica, erotic romance, how to write it, how to determine which one you’re writing, and what the publisher might be looking for in your work.

Following is the chat transcript from the Coyote Con panel on how to write erotica/erotic romance. I joined fellow author Joely Sue Burkhart on Sunday, May 30th. Deena Fisher moderated for us.

View this and other transcripts from all Coyote Con Panels at the Coyote Con website.
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Panel: Teresa Wymore, Joely Sue Burkhart
2PM Eastern, May 30, 2010

[Deena] 2:07 pm: This is writing erotica and erotic romance with Teresa Wymore and Joely Sue Burkhart. Both of these very talented authors are skilled at writing sex scenes that sizzle, that still demonstrate character depth and move the plot along. I’m still not sure how they do it. Here’s hoping they’ll tell us.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:09 pm: As Teresa said, we love smut…when it’s really good!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:09 pm: Teresa, how do YOU write really good smut?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:10 pm: I write a lot from experience–not blow-for-blow, but real life not ideals

[Teresa Wymore] 2:11 pm: I try to make it real and love it when it sounds like it is

[Teresa Wymore] 2:11 pm: I’m not shy either, which helps a lot

[joelysueburkhart] 2:11 pm: What makes it real for me are the emotions and conflicts…not the body parts.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:11 pm: I’m more interested in what the character wants and is afraid of — especially in bed.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:11 pm: Yes…I think of my writing as erotica althoug some might see it as erotic romance because of the relationships

[Teresa Wymore] 2:12 pm: What is the definition difference?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:13 pm: The lines are blurred more and more, even between romance and erotic romance, vs. erotica.

[Deena] 2:13 pm: I think the biggest difference between erotica and erotic romance, is that there’s a happily ever after, or a happy for now at the end of the romance.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:13 pm: Erotica (for me) is more about the sexual journey, the exploration, where romance is about the relationship, which sex plays a part.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:13 pm: Bleh…forget the future…live for now…that’s what I like writing

[joelysueburkhart] 2:14 pm: There are things now under the “romance” label that would have been considered erotica ten or twenty years ago.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:14 pm: Yes, lots of blurring can happen in those defs

[Teresa Wymore] 2:14 pm: Yes, explicit sex is normal in mainstream, right, just not dominant?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:15 pm: Romance in general seems to be “hotter.”

[Teresa Wymore] 2:15 pm: I write mostly lesbian erotica, both short and novel, but have written straight and m/m. I started publishing in digital about 10 years ago and even that have evolved

[Teresa Wymore] 2:15 pm: I like the “heat” levels..they make me laugh

[joelysueburkhart] 2:15 pm: Me too, Teresa. Is this “hot” or “smoldering” or “sensual” or …?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:16 pm: I stink at labels. My greatest weakness as a writer is my inability to categorize myself. So when a friend told me to submit a story as “erotic” I was like….really?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:16 pm: Like porn, erotica is going through that adjustment of needing it to be more unusual, envelope-pushing

[joelysueburkhart] 2:17 pm: Personally, pushing the envelope can be dangerous — seems to lead to stories that resolves to simple “acts” rather than any real depth.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:18 pm: yeah, disappoints me too seeing that act/fetish focus

[Teresa Wymore] 2:18 pm: to me, that is porn

[joelysueburkhart] 2:18 pm: A true erotic scene isn’t about the anatomy or dirty words, etc.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:18 pm: you have to have relationships, and few relationships are all about An Act

[Teresa Wymore] 2:18 pm: But #$%^&* if those anthologies aren’t sellin!

[Teresa Wymore] 2:19 pm: I see calls for new ones every week

[joelysueburkhart] 2:19 pm: *nods*

[Teresa Wymore] 2:19 pm: #$%^&* #$%^&* #$%^&*

[Teresa Wymore] 2:19 pm: neat

[Teresa Wymore] 2:19 pm: like demolition man

[Teresa Wymore] 2:19 pm: I write d – a -m -n and it translates it for me

[joelysueburkhart] 2:20 pm: So we’ve talked about what we don’t like in “erotica” — what do you like, Teresa?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:20 pm: dominant women, obedient men, and beer

[Teresa Wymore] 2:20 pm: oh..you mean erotica

[joelysueburkhart] 2:20 pm: Wheeee!

[Teresa Wymore] 2:20 pm: The relationships…I like real people having awesome sex

[Teresa Wymore] 2:21 pm: bad people, good people,

[joelysueburkhart] 2:21 pm: Real people having awesome sex – yes. REAL people.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:21 pm: As we said in the transformative sex panel, the sexual relationship is a “hero’s journey” too.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:21 pm: There are going to be moments of doubt and fear along with the heights of pleasure.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:22 pm: I see newbies entering the market and all up tight abut the sex…I understand it take a lot to break through those insecurities and self-revelations, but the acts are not good without the people.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:22 pm: A scene that can take a reader through many emotions, give them chills and goose bumps…now that is a scene that would make me very happy indeed.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:23 pm: Maybe we could list a few pointers or questions we use when writing an erotic scene?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:23 pm: If a writer can make a good story without sex, then she can make a god one with it, but good sex won’t save a story.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:24 pm: My first would be: use your senses, all of them.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:24 pm: Don’t be afraid to explore the darker emotions.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:25 pm: At the risk of TMI, I admit I use a lot from my personal experience of relationships and sex. You have to rely on what you know…which makes all the murders I write about a little tough, but there are sensual connections, emotional connections to real life

[Teresa Wymore] 2:25 pm: Please never watch porn movies and other people’s sex to write your scenes…they end up being written from the outside, not from the inside of someone with the sensual experience, as Joely says.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:26 pm: Lynn Viehl asks 3 main questions when writing: who are you? What do you want? What’s the worst thing I can do to you?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:26 pm: As a reader, I want to feel it, be in the mdidle of it, not watching it.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:26 pm: You can use these same questions to write a powerful sexual story, too. What do you want in bed? What’s the worst thing you think you need?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:27 pm: Good questions

[joelysueburkhart] 2:27 pm: What’s the worst sexual experience the character ever had? The best? (which for romance, had better happen on the page! haha)

[Teresa Wymore] 2:28 pm: What about bad sex..is it okay to write?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:28 pm: We spend all this time writing up character backgrounds…why not sexual backgrounds too? Dark secrets, greatest fears. They can be very powerful.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:29 pm: Admittedly we don’t see “bad” sex, at least in romance, unless it’s the antagonist.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:30 pm: I’ve written unpleasant sex, often in the early experiences of a relationship, but rarely see it in other writers. I know readers want the fantasy, but as a reader myself, the fantasy includes wanting it real…and what’s more real than evolving and communicating?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:30 pm: Which is a hot button for me — don’t give your antagonist some sexual perversion to say he’s “bad.” That’s exactly why I chose to write a hero that was a sadist — he’s the HERO!

[Teresa Wymore] 2:30 pm: Nice point!

[Teresa Wymore] 2:30 pm: That’s not the “bad” I’m talking about

[joelysueburkhart] 2:30 pm: Right — sorry, you mean a bad, not fulfilling experience, but that’s what popped into my head.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:31 pm: perversions make for good plots

[Teresa Wymore] 2:31 pm: and character dimensions

[Teresa Wymore] 2:31 pm: Bad sex as in selfish or unfulfilling or unfinished

[Teresa Wymore] 2:31 pm: adjusting

[Teresa Wymore] 2:31 pm: fears getting in the way

[joelysueburkhart] 2:32 pm: It’s sort of become a genre pillar that the heroine of a romance should experience multiple orgasms and the best sex ever with ONLY the hero.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:32 pm: She’d never have sex with him and not experience ultimate pleasure.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:32 pm: Yeah, I really don’t like that. That isn’t real, and I feel it does a disservice to women’s sexuality

[joelysueburkhart] 2:32 pm: He’d never need to pop a viagra first.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:32 pm: And most women need much more stimulation

[Teresa Wymore] 2:34 pm: That fascinates me that women are writing these erotic stories and representing women’s sexuality in an unrealistic way. Why do you suppose?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:34 pm: Do women not know their own bodies or are they just writing the ideal regardless?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:34 pm: Maybe because we WISH it could be so easy and wonderful? In fact, sex can be a lot of work.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:34 pm: Hahahaha!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:35 pm: Sorry, I have a headache, honey?

[Deena] 2:35 pm: Maybe we’re programmed to think we’re doing it wrong if it’s not easy, so we perpetuate the stereotype?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:36 pm: The fantasy is a man completely dedicated to the woman’s pleasure. He knows exactly how and where and when to touch, how long, how much. And the pleasure flows like a river!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:36 pm: I keep seeing that Smart Bitches “Ur doin’ it wrong” LOLcat.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:37 pm: Are erotic romance like that…the man truly devoting lots of time and types of stimulation? Or is it about 10 mins, like most men, only the women in the story find that enough?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:37 pm: I don’t read a lot of straight romance any more

[joelysueburkhart] 2:37 pm: That’s how MY erotic romances are, snort. The rest, I don’t know.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:38 pm: I wish they all were

[Teresa Wymore] 2:38 pm: Then I could read more again

[joelysueburkhart] 2:38 pm: It’s definitely hard to write that way — but I guess I like torturing my heroes.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:38 pm: Yes, that’s best…heroes need torturing

[joelysueburkhart] 2:39 pm: I like to set myself a challenge (that’s where zombie romances came from). So one challenge is to write an erotic scene with very few “hot” words. Just the emotions and the senses.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:39 pm: How hot can you make it?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:40 pm: How long can you go before THE act?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:40 pm: Without saying a single f or c word?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:40 pm: NOw that’s erotic IMO.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:40 pm: Good idea…I like delving into the emotions as well, avoiding euphemisms usually, but I like the F and C & C & P words alot.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:41 pm: Sometimes nothing but an f-bomb will do!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:41 pm: But the words are so overdone in today’s erotic stories — I like to try and get by without, at least in first draft.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:41 pm: Deena once said I used “drool” too much

[Deena] 2:41 pm: heh. She did.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:42 pm: Now every sex scene I laugh, Deena

[Teresa Wymore] 2:42 pm: Keep that saliva in your mouth!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:42 pm: It’s like some authors use the potty language as shortcut for “this is erotic” when it’s nothing but curse words.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:42 pm: Yes, and lots of telling…”She was hot” “she turned him on”. Show his feelings, right?

[widdershins] 2:44 pm: What about writing the body bits? At some point you have to get anatomical. What works and what doesn’t and why?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:46 pm: Just watch the purple prose. If you have to call it a helmeted warrior with plum head, then please, just use the c word.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:46 pm: And time period

[Teresa Wymore] 2:44 pm: If you’re new to erotic writing, you might want to get some practice at erotic-readers.com. They have a list you can join. Free and goo dfeedback and you can see what others are doing, too.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:45 pm: About words…

[joelysueburkhart] 2:45 pm: Widder, it really depends on your character. I admit that I can get squeamish, but I’ve had characters who’d rather just call it what it is and move on. I had to grit my teeth and go right along.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:45 pm: I like the basics. I used to try for euphemisms, but that was because I was uncomfortable with saying them. But when I read others’ that can bore me.

[Deena] 2:46 pm: I think it depends on the story you’ve written. What would your characters call those body parts? Toad-in-the-hole? cocksickle?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:46 pm: It has to fit the story too…sometimes gentler sometimes coarser

[Teresa Wymore] 2:46 pm: And time period

[joelysueburkhart] 2:47 pm: You’re always going to have readers who are offended, or laugh. I can’t help but laugh when I see certain words in a “romance” but that’s just me.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:47 pm: That’s the hard part of erotica writing…risking self-revelation

[Teresa Wymore] 2:47 pm: And the heroic part

[PeachesNCream] 2:47 pm: @ Joely “but I guess I like torturing my heroes” — you aren’t exactly gentle to the heroines either *g*

[joelysueburkhart] 2:48 pm:     thanks, Peaches, I’ll take that as a compliment!

[PTurner] 2:48 pm: I realize we’re not getting into this, but one thing that really annoys me is people writing bdsm and having no clue about the complicated relationship between the sub & dom. And don’t forget the safe word!

[Teresa Wymore] 2:48 pm: yes…I think a lot of those writers are seeing it and not in the lifestyle

[Deena] 2:48 pm: A lot of people don’t understand the dynamic in a real BDSM relationship.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:49 pm: I was reluctant to write BDSM because I was afraid I’d get it wrong. I studied a lot…and then realized I’d unconsciously been pulling bits in long beforehand. That gave me the courage to just explore it through my characters, and they told me where they wanted to go.

[PTurner] 2:49 pm: I want to write it but I’m going to make sure I understand it and talk to people who are practitioners, so I learn the right way. And I only read authors who are practictioners.

[widdershins] 2:50 pm: @Theresa…I love your sense of the absurd! …. the difference between writing lesbian erotica and straight erotica? Is there one? I think so!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:50 pm: Just a comment @Pam – will you only read a murder mystery written by a murderer? Non practioners who care can write it correctly if they care enough to do the research.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:51 pm: Yes..and I like writing lesbian more not just because of the sex but because the the relationships and the different power dynamic…it’s not a given like in straight, where masculine submission has to be explained

[Teresa Wymore] 2:51 pm: And by submission I don’t mean bdsm, just relationships

[PTurner] 2:52 pm: Sorry, Joely. That came out wrong. No, I wouldn’t. What I meant was I won’t read an author if I learned she didn’t care to do the research. So yes, I would read authors who weren’t practitioners but cared enough to get it right.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:53 pm: Pam, you’re absolutely right that there are really bad BDSM roms out there, no research, etc. But I learned a lot of what not to do from them!

[joelysueburkhart] 2:54 pm: I used to love Laurell K. Hamilton until I realized how much about BDSM she’d messed up! It does make it hard to read it now.

[Deena] 2:54 pm: How do they find examples of the good ones, of whatever stripe they’re reading, so they can get it right?

[PTurner] 2:54 pm: I just don’t like the way some authors think BDSM is only violence and power control. So I’d give yours a try, or anyone else’s first. My apologies! (Insert foot in mouth, bite down hard.)

[Teresa Wymore] 2:55 pm: Where do you find good erotica?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:55 pm: No apologies — you’re right — there are really bad ones. I read Dr. Sarah/Joan’s reviews on Dear Author, even though she didn’t like Rae much in my book she reviewed. She DID say I got the BDSM right — and she’s always careful to point out who’s getting it right.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:55 pm: DP

[Teresa Wymore] 2:55 pm: Otherwise, a lot of crap to wade through

[Deena] 2:55 pm: heh. We don’t have enough of it yet, though.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:55 pm: Do you want more erotica, Deena?

[Teresa Wymore] 2:55 pm: I buy so much I feel I just wasted my money on–whether digital or print

[Deena] 2:56 pm: Yes, good erotica, definitely.

[Deena] 2:57 pm: I don’t want slot A into tab B erotica. That’s not to say I always get it right either. You might find something at DP you thought stunk up the place.

[Teresa Wymore] 2:57 pm: I’ve made the comment on other panels that erotica is judged differently from other genres

[Deena] 2:57 pm: Teresa and Joely are my idea of really good erotic authors though. And I think they do a great job.

[widdershins] 2:58 pm: The lines between SF genres are blurring.. mostly I think, due to e-publishing and indie writers… where do you see erotica evolving to in the next few years specifically in SF?

[joelysueburkhart] 2:58 pm: Good storytelling is incredibly key, whether the story is erotic or not.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:59 pm: Widder, that’s an interesting question. A lot of erotic SF in the past has been about the human woman abducted by aliens sort of story. I’d love to see erotic stories that explore different sorts of sexuality.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:00 pm: Every genre will grow my explicit. Those of us toilign under the tainted label now will be pushed aside by young new writers for whom it’s not a stigma

[Teresa Wymore] 3:00 pm: I believe it will become more of an art form and less utility

[Deena] 3:00 pm: SF has a long history of being intertwined with erotica. Alien sex; machine sex; I’m not sure if it will change a lot, though I hope there will be more that is feminist-centric rather than patriarchal.

[widdershins] 3:01 pm: yep.. if I have anything to say about it

[Deena] 3:01 pm: Patriarchal sells, though, so it won’t go away.

[joelysueburkhart] 3:01 pm: Good for you, widder! Bring it on!

[Teresa Wymore] 3:01 pm: yes…I believe that will happen Deena, if women write their true experiences and not the ideals bequeathed them by their patriarchal upbringing

[chibiBoo] 3:01 pm: what is a good starting point on researching BDSM?

[joelysueburkhart] 3:02 pm: On my shelf are SM101 and Sensual Magic.

[joelysueburkhart] 3:02 pm: And not reading LKH and believing that a safe word is “enough.” Gah.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:02 pm: I mentioned the erotica-readers.com site before. They have lots of amateur writers and some pros and all kinds of interests. I woudl say you couldn’t go wrong seeing what they’re writing and the feedback they’re getting. the feedback is incredibly, brutally honest

[joelysueburkhart] 3:03 pm: e.g. enough was supposedly her safe word. NO.

[Deena] 3:03 pm: I started by finding BDSM groups online and reading their rules for joining and how they define themselves.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:04 pm: If you’re gong to write sex, you have ot have a thicker skin than any other genre, because everyone knows sex and thinks they’re an expert

[Deena] 3:04 pm: I’m not writing it, though. That was enough for me to get a good overview, but not enough to learn how to write it. Joely and Teresa have good ideas.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:05 pm: I don’t like writing bdsm because, like the lifestyle, it felt like a game to me. I deal with power relationships in writng that are not about granted power and the sub is not the one in control

[Deena] 3:06 pm: I’d like to very quickly stress that Joely’s advice not to use flowery euphemisms is a very, very good place to start writing erotica and erotic romance. No lances, no swords of power, no weeping cave of womanhood.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:06 pm: hahahaha!

[joelysueburkhart] 3:06 pm: *dies* Absolutely no weeping caves!

[widdershins] 3:06 pm: ugh… spare me!

[widdershins] 3:07 pm: and no fading to a flowery sunset either

[Deena] 3:07 pm: And another pet peeve of mine, from an editorial point of view, is make sure that the logistics are possible.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:07 pm: Erotica is too often showing us how to conform in the bedroom, not create, but that will change

[joelysueburkhart] 3:07 pm: Don’t tell me he’s hot…show me the quivering muscles, the quickening pulse, the heated skin…

[Teresa Wymore] 3:07 pm: yes, Deena…I liked your reviews in one of the Membra Disjectas

[Deena] 3:08 pm: I read a story where a young woman was watching two others, and she could see EVERYthing, despite the fact that one had her head buried in the other’s crotch. How is she seeing that, past the hair, and the head, and … it made no sense. Get poseable dolls, if necessary.

[Deena] 3:08 pm: Thanks, Teresa… I think that’s the one I’m STILL thinking about.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:08 pm: yes! Funny

[joelysueburkhart] 3:09 pm: Ha, I need some poseable dolls. Are they tax deductible? *snorts*

[Deena] 3:09 pm: And don’t have your characters shrug off rape, or violence, or torture just because the love of their life is there to kiss it and make it better. AAGH.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:09 pm: That’s because the author wasn’t IN the action but WATCHING it

[Deena] 3:09 pm: hee. Someone… I can’t recall who now, buys poseable dolls for each of her characters. Man, I was feeling the doll-lust. They’re beautiful.

[Teresa Wymore] 3:09 pm: Yes, Deena, I read a disturbing one of those once

[Deena] 3:09 pm: Yes, exactly, Teresa!

[joelysueburkhart] 3:10 pm: If you ever find a Gregar doll, I want him!!

[Deena] 3:10 pm: Me too!

[Deena] 3:10 pm: But yeah, you’ve got dibs.

[PeachesNCream] 3:10 pm: there’s enough Gregar to go round…right?

[Deena] 3:11 pm: Gregar should have brothers.

[Deena] 3:11 pm: Joely… you allow fanfiction?

[Deena] 3:11 pm: heh

[joelysueburkhart] 3:11 pm: @Peaches, @Deena, you guys are so oooo bad.

[riversway] 3:11 pm: I think the dolls came up in the costumeing session

[Deena] 3:11 pm: we are, yes… :highfives peaches::

[PeachesNCream] 3:12 pm: :highfive: Deena

[Deena] 3:12 pm: I’m sure it’s in a transcript somewhere, and if we get a member directory up, we can bug her about where she gets her dolls.

joelysueburkhart] 3:14 pm: Thank you everyone for coming!

[Deena] 3:14 pm: later everyone!

[Teresa Wymore] 3:14 pm: I have to run to a girl scouts event     It’s been great!

[Teresa Wymore] 3:14 pm: I’ll miss these panels

[chibiBoo] 3:15 pm: Thanks for the Con Deena!

[Deena] 3:15 pm: welcome, Chibi! It’s been lots of fun.

[riversway] 3:15 pm: thank you, a very interesting panel

[PTurner] 3:15 pm: Agree, as usual. Great panel today and throughout the con. Thanks!

[widdershins] 3:15 pm: Scoott was my fave presenter last night. but I’ve fallen in love all over again… Joely and Theresa… awesome, witty and knowledgable… irresistible combination

[joelysueburkhart] 3:16 pm: Aw, thanks widder! It was so much fun!

[Emily] 3:16 pm: thanks !!! great panel.

[Deena] 3:16 pm: We’ve had some amazing presenters.

[PeachesNCream] 3:17 pm: Awesome panel!