Coyote Con Transcript: Transformative Sex

Posted on 1:16 pm in Blog, Craft | 0 comments

Sex is an imperative we can’t often avoid, but what takes fictional sex to transformative sex? How does sex transform your character? Why do you want it to? Learn what makes sex transformative and how to write transformative sex scenes from our author panel.

Following is the chat transcript from the Coyote Con panel on how to write transformative sex. I joined fellow authors Anna Black, Joely Sue Burkhart, David Sklar on Saturday, May 22nd. Deena Fisher moderated for us.

View this and other transcripts from all Coyote Con Panels at the Coyote Con website.

———————————–

[Deena] 1:03 pm: Welcome, everyone, to transformative sex with Anna Black, David Sklar, Joely Sue Burkhart, and Teresa Wymore. We’ll have everyone introduce themselves first, and then, I think they should start by telling us what transformative sex is to them.

[AnnaB] 1:04 pm: I’m Anna Black. I write primarily erotic short fiction. I also write erotic romance for Ellora’s cave.

[David Sklar] 1:05 pm: I’m David Sklar; my novella Shadow of the Antlered Bird was published by Drollerie in 2008. My works have also appeared in Space & Time, Paterson Literary Review, Cabinet des Fees, and I’ve got upcoming work in Strange Horizons.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:06 pm: I’m Joely Sue Burkhart and I write romantic SF/F and erotic romance for Drollerie Press, Samhain Publishing, and Carina Press.

[teresawymore] 1:06 pm: Teresa Wymore here…I write primarily lesbian erotic fiction but many subgenres, both short and novel. Darklaw will be out shortly from DP.

[Deena] 1:07 pm: I haven’t read Anna’s work yet, but I know all of the rest of you use sex to do some interesting revelations / transformations with your characters. Could you talk about what transformative sex means to you?

[joelysueburkhart] 1:08 pm: Transformation means CHANGE. Sex is an intimate vulnerable part of the human experience — what better way to reveal deep characterization?

[teresawymore] 1:10 pm: yep Joely…and erotica has been limited in it because it’s viewed as a means to an end–a genre defined by its effect rather than its storytelling. This focus on its effect makes authors afraid to risk personal revelation, leading to procedural writing that plays into myths and stereotypes about sex. Doesn’t allow transformation of character or reader. Erotica has great potential to reveal character through interplay of public and private information that no other genre dares to embrace.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:10 pm: If a reader can skip your sex scene and not miss something crucial, then it’s not a transformative scene.

[AnnaB] 1:11 pm: I agree with, Joely. The transformation of my characters is important to me and I see the sexual act as one way of bringing about that change.

[David Sklar] 1:12 pm: I’m still trying to find the words.

[David Sklar] 1:12 pm: Because the idea of “transformative sex” can mean so many things.

[teresawymore] 1:12 pm: Transformative for both character and the reader

[joelysueburkhart] 1:13 pm: As a reader, I skip a sex scene when it’s too much anatomy and not enough emotion.

[teresawymore] 1:13 pm: totally

[David Sklar] 1:13 pm: You know, it can be emotionally transformative, or it can be physically transformative (check out Sarah Avery’s Atlantis Cranks Need Not Apply for a great example of that), and the transformation can be in any direction–for the better, for the worse, for the not really sure but we’ll find out eventually.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:14 pm: Boundaries should be falling left and right, making these characters shaky, vulnerable, near tears, EMOTIONAL. That’s what makes a good scene for me.

[David Sklar] 1:14 pm: For me, it’s only really worth writing about sex if it is integral to the story.

[teresawymore] 1:15 pm: nice point about the direction … doesn’t it seem that when writing an erotic story, the sex is supposed to be pleasurable and the outcome satisfaction, or the story is seen as failure.

[David Sklar] 1:15 pm: This results in a lot of stories with kind of twisted sex that’s clearly described, and healthier sex that happens “offscreen”

[teresawymore] 1:15 pm: if it’s transformational and character revealing, it’s not about pleasure all the time

[joelysueburkhart] 1:16 pm: I like what Anna does with her sex scenes — she treats each one like an individual hero’s journey.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:16 pm: There are dark moments in each scene, inner caves that must be explored, before you can return with the elixir.

[AnnaB] 1:17 pm: I try to treat my sex scenes like any other scene. There should be something both or one of the characters wants, obstacles to that goal and some sort of
resolution.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:18 pm: Something is at stake. At any point they might have to abandon the quest. That raises the emotion to a new high.

[AnnaB] 1:18 pm: When I plot my stories (and I’m definitely a plotter) I try to keep the Hero’s Journey in mind for not only the external and internal journey of the characters, but also
their emotional journerys, which, since I write erotic romance, involves sex.

[David Sklar] 1:19 pm: Responding to the “direction” comment — yes, I’ve got a piece coming out in Drollerie’s Straying from the Path in which the heroine’s journey involves a sexual
encounter with a sorcerer who isn’t a good person, doesn’t care about her, and has his own motivations which aren’t at all apparent.

[AnnaB] 1:19 pm: As Joely noted, there should be dark moments, ordeals, rewards, setbacks. The movement toward sex should not be a smooth one.

[teresawymore] 1:20 pm: Anna, curious….and is the sex itself always smooth and positive?

[AnnaB] 1:20 pm: No, it’s not. And it shouldn’t be. But I do write erotic romance and there are some expectations when it comes to romantic aspects of it.

[David Sklar] 1:20 pm: The story in “Straying” has a scene in which the POV character has sex that is pleasurable in the moment, but she’s not in control of her faculties. When she wakes up in the morning and sees how her senses were deceived, there is a strong, very negative emotional response.

[Deena] 1:21 pm: Joely, you’ve written sex scenes that reflect transformation internally, the vulnerability, the emotion; and some that demonstrate an outward transformation that reflects the inward. I think that happens in the stories all of you tell, actually. Does speculative fiction make writing transformative sex scenes easier?

[joelysueburkhart] 1:21 pm: Deena, it’s definitely more visible to the reader when a physical, dramatic transformation is made. But it can be done. I hope that anyone who reads Dear Sir will see the physical transformation that Rae is going through, moving step by step closer to the person she is at her core.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:22 pm: She’s not going to “change shape” like Isabella in BD [Beautiful Death] for example, but she’s changing, and it’s dramatic and very fearful for her.

[teresawymore] 1:22 pm: My Darklaw characters aren’t changed by the sex so much as the sex reveals their true characters..the ones emerging as they become gods. In other words … transforming isn’t because of sex but shown by sex.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:22 pm: Anna, I think that first scene in the Emissary shows that. He’s so hard, so determined to break her. It’s not “pleasurable” in the true romance sense of sex, but whoa. What a journey she takes him on!

[AnnaB] 1:24 pm: And when I think of something not being pleasurable I’m not just thinking about the physical aspects but the emotional aspects also. It can “feel” good but that doesn’t mean the emotions the characters are feeling are necessarily in synch.

[David Sklar] 1:24 pm: I don’t usually write that clearly about smooth and positive sex. It comes up more clearly when there is a conflict, a challenge, a nuance.

[teresawymore] 1:25 pm: Me too. Sex is character for me. If my characters are manipulative and controlling, so is the sex.

[AnnaB] 1:25 pm: Thanks, Joely! I was definitely trying to take the hero in that story on a journey of discovery.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:25 pm: A smooth, gentle, non-transformative scene can be soooo powerful if placed correctly. A beta reader helped me make Return to Shanhasson so much more powerful with her suggestion of a simple, non-violent, non-transformative scene at the
end.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:25 pm: It was like the cherry on top.

[Deena] 1:25 pm: Do you all plot out your sex scenes? You know what you want the characters to feel at the end of it, but how do you determine this one includes a spanking, and this one includes something else?

[David Sklar] 1:26 pm: The story in “Straying” has a scene in which the POV character has sex that is pleasurable in the moment, but she’s not in control of her faculties. When she wakes up in the morning and sees how her senses were deceived, there is a strong, very negative emotional response.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:26 pm: Pretty much, yes, I do plot fairly heavily unless it’s a short piece. If I don’t know “why” the sex scene should happen in this exact spot, I make a note and skip it. Until I do. Sometimes I find later it wasn’t needed — I didn’t have anything to reveal.

[teresawymore] 1:27 pm: My characters take me there. I don’t plan anything. That’s why I don’t/can’t write for most erotic markets that cater to fetish

[joelysueburkhart] 1:27 pm: If it’s just the act, fine, the characters can do it off page all they want.

[AnnaB] 1:28 pm: I usually have some idea as to where I want the characters to wind up once the sex is over (because the sex is part of their movement through the story, both
internally and externally) but there are always surprises when I write a sex scene. Which is great.

[David Sklar] 1:28 pm: In this particular story, in this particular scene, there were things that had to be accomplished in order for the magic to work. And they were contradictory things–things that were way out of the range of what I would consider acceptable.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:28 pm: Oh, yes, Anna, I love those moments of surprises!

[teresawymore] 1:29 pm: writing internal conflicts is the essence of a good writer to me, even whenthey stray from the cultural norms (or maybe especially)

[AnnaB] 1:29 pm: As to whether I include something like spanking in a scene, I will say that if I’m writing a story for an anthology that’s about spanking, then yes, there will be spanking.

[David Sklar] 1:30 pm: One of my beta readers really couldn’t comment on the story at all beyond that she was uncomfortable about the sex in the story. I wrote back that the sex in that story made me uncomfortable.

[teresawymore] 1:30 pm: I see these lists at every epress about subjects they don’t allow. business decision that often conlficts with art

[joelysueburkhart] 1:30 pm: For me, the spanking (or other sexual element) has to be integral to the character. Why does he/she need it? What does it show? It’s not just the act.

[teresawymore] 1:30 pm: that’s awesome David !

[David Sklar] 1:31 pm: @Teresa: I think these lists go back to what you were saying before about erotica being perceived as product rather than literature.

[teresawymore] 1:31 pm: yes i agree

[teresawymore] 1:31 pm: it’s a shame to turn art into utility

[AnnaB] 1:31 pm: Defintely. I have a story coming out in the summer about spanking, but the spanking is very integral to both characters and is more about their relation to each other
than just the act itself.

[David Sklar] 1:32 pm: Thanks teresa.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:32 pm: It goes back to the need/ fear/ want aspect of the hero’s journey, which I love.

[AnnaB] 1:33 pm: I also address the need/fear/want aspects when it comes to my sex scenes.

[David Sklar] 1:33 pm: Expanding, I think the commodification of erotica pretty much prohibits certain things that are directly related to the darker side of sex.

[teresawymore] 1:34 pm: On my site I have a recent post about just this issue “writing erotica: do you know the sex code?” So i won’t info dump here, but please take a look if you want more detail about how erotic writing is limited in a way other genres aren’t.

[Deena] 1:34 pm: Teresa, what are the things that aren’t allowed that you feel stifle art? Should there not be rules on what is and isn’t allowed? There are things I’d have a hard time publishing because of legal concerns.

[teresawymore] 1:34 pm: If sex reveals characters, it has to be dark sometimes

[David Sklar] 1:35 pm: I liked that post–I read it just after I put up my post telling people to come to this panel.

[teresawymore] 1:35 pm: Totally Deena…i understand the business reasons…turning readers off..i’m talking about a more general cultural transformatin that we need to see sex in freer ways

[teresawymore] 1:36 pm: I mean…i can read an explicit scene about a murder–that’s illegal. But an explicit rape scene must be off page. Seems odd to me

[joelysueburkhart] 1:37 pm: I think you can show the darker side of sex/character without getting into trouble with the legal department, but it is harder. I mean, Gregar isn’t exactly a nice guy. *cough* But he’s one of everyone’s favorite characters.

[David Sklar] 1:37 pm: One friend has noted that really _explicity_ describing sex, rather than describing it in emotional terms can make it feel more clinical, less positive.

[teresawymore] 1:37 pm: So, I see these limits of sex being consensual, adult, and non scatalogical making sense because readers get turned off. But really, you see it in real life, and on the web.

[teresawymore] 1:38 pm: Do you think men and women write sex differently?

[Deena] 1:38 pm: And do men and women read sex differently?

[David Sklar] 1:38 pm: The story I was talking about before, I don’t think I could have sold it to a sex-positive erotica market, even though the sex was central and clearly described.

[David Sklar] 1:38 pm: Oh, I’m still on the previous question, but that one has a lot of potential.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:39 pm: I think every person reads sex differently, bringing their own fears, misconceptions, and desires into the mix. Someone will read a scene and LOVE it; others will hate it.

[teresawymore] 1:39 pm: I’m all for arousing stories but I wish there was more exploration of darker sex

[teresawymore] 1:40 pm: Joely, agree…and erotic fiction is SUPPPOSED ot be arousing not challenging, isn’t it? I meanit seems that way or there would be more variety

[teresawymore] 1:40 pm: Interesting deena

[David Sklar] 1:41 pm: …that the sex in the scene I described wasn’t strictly consensual, so it was, arguably rape, even though there wasn’t any force involved, because she wasn’t in a position to give meaningful consent. So if someone were reading it to be turned on–well, they get what they want until the illusion is burst, and then they see what they were responding to. I don’t normally mess with my readers in that particular way, but this story required it.

[Deena] 1:41 pm: You always hear that men want Slot A filled with Tab B, not emotion, but I’m wondering if the widening of the genre/art, the inclusion of women, is actually improving it for everyone. Maybe men didn’t know they could agitate for something besides slot sex.

[teresawymore] 1:42 pm: David…I need to read that one

[joelysueburkhart] 1:42 pm: I think the best sex scenes should be both arousing and challenging. How better to touch and affect your reader than to make them question their own responses?

[David Sklar] 1:42 pm: Teresa–you’ve got a story in Straying too, right? I think I stumbled on your first page while clearing off my desk.

[teresawymore] 1:42 pm: Deena…I wonder too…myths go both ways

[AnnaB] 1:42 pm: That’s a good point, Joely.

[David Sklar] 1:43 pm: Yes, well said Joely.

[David Sklar] 1:43 pm: And thanks.

[teresawymore] 1:43 pm: David, yes, Anthem–rather dark but not erotic

[Deena] 1:43 pm: Straying will be out by the end of the month, as will a few other goodies that have been languishing due to my fractured attention span.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:43 pm: I gotta say, some of the best scenes I’ve written, I was scared to death of.

[teresawymore] 1:43 pm: Oh Joely that’s the best I love reading that kind

[teresawymore] 1:43 pm: I’ve run into people who get angry at you for challenging them!

[joelysueburkhart] 1:44 pm: Oh, yeah. Hate what they fear in themselves, right?

[teresawymore] 1:44 pm: Anthem crosses that taboo worse than sex—cannibalism

[teresawymore] 1:44 pm: yes joely…many readers want it easy

[David Sklar] 1:44 pm: I had a story in college that made me a pariah, because I dealt with serious issues in a humorous tone.

[David Sklar] 1:45 pm: This one started with the frog prince and took it in the direction of a kiss that turned a girl into a doormat.

[teresawymore] 1:45 pm: You make an art of irreverence!

[David Sklar] 1:45 pm: Many people saw what I was doing, but not why, or that it was intentional.

[David Sklar] 1:46 pm: Um…thanks?

[teresawymore] 1:46 pm: hahahaha

[David Sklar] 1:46 pm: I have a story coming out in another anthology this year that ends with a child taking candy from a stranger.

[David Sklar] 1:47 pm: Not an erotic story, I should hastily add.

[Deena] 1:47 pm: Oh, whew.

[teresawymore] 1:47 pm: david!

[David Sklar] 1:47 pm: I’m still trying to get to the stuff about men and women responding to sex differently.

[Deena] 1:48 pm: Can you guys walk us through writing a sex scene? What are the words you use for body parts if you’re not comfortable being too graphic? How do you work out the logistics of arms and legs and torsos?

[David Sklar] 1:48 pm: Um…I mentioned the candy because of the “irreverence,” not because of anything to do with sex.

[teresawymore] 1:48 pm: what about all this m/m written by women for women? I can’t wrap my head around that one.

[teresawymore] 1:48 pm: Oh i’m comforable being graphic

[widdershins] 1:48 pm: What’s your personal line between porn and erotica?

[unknown] Kushiel’s Dart by Jaquline Carey is an example of transformative sex in extreme (S&M) as one of the keys that drives the narrative

[joelysueburkhart] 1:49 pm: My favorite questions for a character: what do you NEED? What’s the WORST thing you think you might need? What sexual limits are you afraid of or challenged by? And then I know what my plot is.

[teresawymore] 1:49 pm: ooo the porn vs erotica question…never seen a resolution to that

[joelysueburkhart] 1:50 pm: Some people are going to call romance porn for women.

[widdershins] 1:50 pm: yeah that’s why I asked ‘personal’

[teresawymore] 1:50 pm: eye of the beholder, men vs women, physical vs emotional: all answers with points to be made

[teresawymore] 1:50 pm: Honestly, I don’t think I’ve ever READ a porn book

[David Sklar] 1:51 pm: I look at porn for men, and I find it arousing but not erotic–does that make sense?

[joelysueburkhart] 1:51 pm: For me personally, if the only goal of a sex scene is to titilate, with no character development, no goal beyond the act, then it’s porn.

[teresawymore] 1:51 pm: much as I complain that most erotica seems like a porn transcript putting it in writing makes it very different from visual–for me anyway

[AnnaB] 1:51 pm: Porn is pretty much lacking in emotion, IMHO. It’s like watching monkeys have sex. That’s the way I see porn.

[teresawymore] 1:52 pm: I like some porn. porn doesn’t touch me emotionally, just in the hormones

[Deena] 1:52 pm: The porn I’ve read, it’s about gratification. The emotion is all greed. Mostly from a man’s point of view.

[David Sklar] 1:52 pm: When I was asked to write erotica for a Circlet Press anthology, I gave a lot of thought to that distinction, because I didn’t think of myself as an erotica writer, and I didn’t want to do it unless it was “meaningful”

[basletum] 1:52 pm: @Anna: What’s wrong with monkey sex? *ducks and runs*

[teresawymore] 1:52 pm: I don’t think about the people later like I do in erotica–like the rest of you say–emotions

[teresawymore] 1:53 pm: ahhh…money sex….

[AnnaB] 1:53 pm: Just not my thing, I’m afraid.

[teresawymore] 1:53 pm: (hahaha “monkey”)

[David Sklar] 1:53 pm: I’m not personally into monkeys.

[David Sklar] 1:53 pm: Too much like my kid.

[teresawymore] 1:54 pm: yeah…that’s interesting…monkeys don’t do it for me and neither do characters widely different fromhumans in sex scenes

[teresawymore] 1:54 pm: scifi sex

[AnnaB] 1:54 pm: However, the way bees have sex, now that’s something!

[David Sklar] 1:54 pm: I saw a fascinating thing on TV about cuttlefish sex a few weeks back.

[joelysueburkhart] 1:55 pm: Haha, Anna! I love the challenge of scifi sex. What would arouse a non-human?

[basletum] 1:55 pm: @teresa: Hey! Twi’leks are hot!

[teresawymore] 1:55 pm: I’m so limited

[barblucas] 1:56 pm: @teresa As a woman who writes M/M for other women, the allure is multifaceted. But to be brief, on a shallow level: if looking at one man is nice, two is nicer. More substantially, there are different power dynamics between two men (or two women) than with a man and a woman, and that’s what interests me in those sorts of stories

[Deena] 1:56 pm: I read a novel the name of which I can’t remember now, about a man who was stranded on an island with only monkeys for company. He fell in love with one, fathered a child with it, and watched another monkey dash the baby’s brains out on a tree. I think I was scarred for life.

[David Sklar] 1:56 pm: Apparently, the female can fertilize her eggs with sperm from more than one male, so after two cuttlefish have mated, the male will guard over the female to make sure no one else gets in.

[AnnaB] 1:56 pm: I’m actually on a panal at Wiscon called The Cultural Construction of Sexuality which is about that very thing, Joley. What is considered sexual and arousing in nonhuman cultures.

[teresawymore] 1:56 pm: wow..deena…david…i’m getting queasy

[teresawymore] 1:56 pm: hahahaha

[Deena] 1:56 pm: Yeah, sorry.

[David Sklar] 1:57 pm: In the scene they showed, another male pretended to be a female wanting to mate with the larger male, and while they were courting each other, he had sex with the female right under the larger male’s nose…er, beak.

[teresawymore] 1:57 pm: barb…interesting…the power dif I see absolutely

[joelysueburkhart] 1:57 pm: Scary, I think I saw something like that too, Deena!

[Deena] 1:57 pm: It was not a genial book.

[teresawymore] 1:57 pm: I write mostly f/f, tried on m/m, and the power i could write but was quite disturbed by trying to write about two peni and how they felt

[teresawymore] 1:57 pm: maybe i shouldn’t have bothered with the physical

[Deena] 1:57 pm: Barb, Teresa, do one or both of you want to talk about that power dynamic more?

[Caras Galadhon] 1:58 pm: @teresa & barb: As an addendum to women writing m/m for other women (and as another female writer of m/m for a female marketplace), I’m not so sure that it’s any different than writing m/f or f/f, in that it’s an exploration of interpersonal dynamics, and perhaps doesn’t need to be justified as anything more than that.

[barblucas] 1:58 pm: @ teresa There’s an interesting academic (but accessible) book called WARRIOR LOVERS, that looks at it from a sociological perspective. I have some issues with some of the argument, but it’s an interesting read.

[widdershins] 1:59 pm: There are beings that we don’t generally see /read having sex in mainstream publications, mythical creatures, elves etc… they seem to spring forth from the foreheads of …. why is that do you think?

[David Sklar] 1:59 pm: @ Caras, I think there’s a difference between writing a variety of relationships including m/m and a woman writing exclusively m/m for other women.

[teresawymore] 1:59 pm: ooo..love the power thing. Not bdsm but character dynamics.

[Deena] 2:00 pm: widder, because they’re props?

[Caras Galadhon] 2:00 pm: @Deena Oh, no. I’m just saying that in the larger literary world there is often bafflement over women writing m/m for other women. Perhaps “justify” is the
wrong word choice there.

[barblucas] 2:00 pm: For me, a lot of M/F erotica and romance often falls back on very traditional roles for each gender. How a hero/heroine (in romance terms) has to behave.

[teresawymore] 2:00 pm: I admit as a niche writing in a niche genre (lesbian is small part of erotica), I’m overwhelmed by the m/m boom.

[David Sklar] 2:00 pm: I haven’t read a lot of m/m by women for women–but I have a suspicion that it’s categorically different from f/f by men for men.

[Deena] 2:01 pm: Caras, I’ve seen that too.

[Deena] 2:01 pm: Why, David? “Categorically” different?

[teresawymore] 2:01 pm: I see how you can write the relationships but the actual experience of sex from a male POV I wonder about

[teresawymore] 2:01 pm: barb-yes!

[teresawymore] 2:02 pm: The f/f by men that I’ve read always includes a man watching or joining later.

[David Sklar] 2:02 pm: My Circlet story (sorry deena, I’ll get to your question in a bit) includes f/f, m/f, f-as-m/m-as-f, f/spirit, and f/sycamore tree…

[barblucas] 2:02 pm: If I’m dealing with M/M or F/F, there aren’t those same expectations. I particularly enjoy two alpha characters coming together and negotiating those waters. That applies to the M/F I like best too.

[Deena] 2:02 pm: Teresa, but then you get into “How do we write from any POV that’s not our own?”

[teresawymore] 2:02 pm: hahahaha! sycamore tree!

[widdershins] 2:02 pm: @Deena… possibly, but even where they are major characters I haven’t come across it much

[teresawymore] 2:02 pm: I agree Deena…that is a very interesting question, a post-modern question!

[David Sklar] 2:02 pm: …but the f/f is different in tone from either f/f by men for men or f/f by lesbians for lesbians.

[David Sklar] 2:03 pm: I had to think about it and finally decided that I was in fact writing f/f for straight and bisexual women.

[David Sklar] 2:03 pm: Which brings us to the science of erotica.

[David Sklar] 2:04 pm: Apparently, there’ve been studies that found out that men are more turned on by visual and auditory stimuli, while women are more turned on by the other senses.

[Deena] 2:04 pm: Widder mentions that she hasn’t seen descriptions of sexual activity between major characters who aren’t human. Honestly, I can’t recall any either, unless they were having sex with the female protag. Why is that?

[David Sklar] 2:05 pm: Which I think is why a lot of porn for men is in movies and photographs, while a lot of erotica for women is in books that allow the reader to imagine a more complete experience.

[Deena] 2:05 pm: David, and yet, Penthouse Letters springs to mind. Along with some really bad stuff I read in the back of a motorcycle mag in my brother-in-law’s bathroom when I was 18.

[David Sklar] 2:05 pm: Penthouse letters is certainly an example.

[David Sklar] 2:06 pm: I would argue there’s a good example of written porn vs written erotica, though I may take a while to get around to saying why, if someone doesn’t beat me to it.

[widdershins] 2:06 pm: @Deena…. yeah I checked out my brother’s porn too… really grossed me out, scarred me for months….. however, In F/F the reader (lesbian) expectation is that there will always be some sort of sex scene

[joelysueburkhart] 2:06 pm: Re: widder’s question, I think the human woman having sex with other beings is the fantasy. Not reading about two non-human characters having sex.

[David Sklar] 2:06 pm: Re nonhuman sex, I actually saw some on Deep Space Nine, which I totally didn’t expect.

[teresawymore] 2:07 pm: remind me, which episode David?

[Deena] 2:07 pm: Well, that means the F/F story I sent out this morning will die in flames, Widder.

[teresawymore] 2:07 pm: i say always expect sex

[joelysueburkhart] 2:07 pm: I hope not Deena! What do I know anyway?!?

[Deena] 2:07 pm: Heh. No biggie if it does. It was fun to write.

[widdershins] 2:07 pm: @Deena… oh dear …depends on your readership too

[teresawymore] 2:08 pm: for every rule and exception

[joelysueburkhart] 2:08 pm: There are so many fantasies to choose from — I just immediately thought of the human woman abducted by aliens, etc. fantasy.

[Deena] 2:08 pm: It’s okay… there’s a bit of fade to black. My husband laughed at me. I’m just not much good at writing explicit sex.

[teresawymore] 2:08 pm: I bet you could be

[Deena] 2:08 pm: I’m a little creeped out by the abduction fantasy… was reading one by Shiloh…someone… last night. Had to put it down when that was added to the abysmal
editing.

[Deena] 2:09 pm: I just need to read more stuff by you, Teresa.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:09 pm: My final comment would be: if it’s making you afraid or uncomfortable, keep going! It’s probably going to be a fantastic scene.

[teresawymore] 2:09 pm: hahahaha!

[David Sklar] 2:09 pm: Forgive me if I misspell the names, but it was Kiera and Ohto. They were talking about how he always imitates humanoid forms, and she wanted to know what it was like when two changelings were together. And the story ended with him turning into something like light and surrounding her. It was beautiful, but they managed to do it in a way that wasn’t too erotic for star trek.

[teresawymore] 2:09 pm: good one joely

[teresawymore] 2:09 pm: oh right!

[Deena] 2:09 pm: I remember that one, David!

[basletum] 2:10 pm: while experimenting with erotic horror, I decided to see how far it could go before I creeped myself out. but the part that creeped me how was how far it actually went before it did.

[David Sklar] 2:10 pm: Thanks.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:10 pm: Thanks everyone for attending!

[Deena] 2:10 pm: Thank you everyone for being here. Thanks so much to Anna, David, Teresa, and Joely.

[widdershins] 2:10 pm: Thanks all….. lots of good stuff to masticate over

[Deena] 2:10 pm: Oh, that’s disturbing Bas.

[AnnaB] 2:10 pm: Thanks everyone.

[teresawymore] 2:10 pm: i tried that a few times too..tough balance

[PeachesNCream] 2:10 pm: Awesome panel…Thanks!!

[teresawymore] 2:11 pm: thanks!

[chibiBoo] 2:11 pm: thanks for the panel

[basletum] 2:11 pm: I’m just jaded like that.

[joelysueburkhart] 2:13 pm: Bye, everyone!