Coyote Con Transcript: Comics and Graphic Novels

Panel: Cindy Lynn Speer, Teresa Wymore, Fraser Sherman (Michael Stewart had an unexpected conflict.)
11pm Eastern, May 28, 2010

Recommended Reading: http://www.zudacomics.com/, Scott McCloud titles: Understanding Comics, Reinventing Comics, Making Comics; Panel One, and Panel Two by Kurt Busiek; Story: Substance, Structure, Style, and the Principles of Screeen Writing by Robert McKee. Please read the transcript for recommended comics and graphic novels.

[frasersherman] 11:05 pm: I’m Fraser Sherman. I write short-stories, film reference books and other stuff. Including a story in Drollerie’s Straying From the Path. I’ve been reading comics/graphic novels since childhood; tried submitting a couple of times, but never successfully.

[CindyLynn] 11:06 pm: I’m Cindy Lynn Speer. I’ve loved comic books, their possibilities as a medium, all of my life. I’ve written several of them (but never published) and hope to finally find an artist to work with. I mostly write fable-esq mysteries and re-told fairy tales. I garden and pretend I’m a swashbuckler.

[CindyLynn] 11:07 pm: I also love to over use commas.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:07 pm: I write and illustrate. I’m currently working on a graphic novel prequel to fantasy epic Darklaw. I’ve collected comic books since I was young and love graphic novels as well as digital comics. Early influences were Ernie Chan & John Buscema (those inks!), any story by Gaiman esp. Death. Loving the reprint collections of comics coming out with 70’s work and the explosion of digital! You can see some of my pages in process at my website (adult content).

[Deena] 11:08 pm: Okay, so what’s the process for getting a graphic novel written and published?

[CindyLynn] 11:08 pm: The first thing to do is find some good scripts. There’s a series called “Panel One” — it’s two books that include some scripts by the best writers out there, including Neil Gaiman.

[frasersherman] 11:09 pm: Well, there are a lot of options beyond the traditional comics publishers. Just browsing the graphics novel section in bookstores shows that.

[CindyLynn] 11:09 pm: See what other people do, and how. It is a very different medium…and it takes a different set of mental mucles to do it.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:09 pm: Collaboration is the first step for most

[Teresa Wymore] 11:09 pm: Most are writer or illustrator

[Teresa Wymore] 11:10 pm: Amateur sites online are getting good and have examples

[frasersherman] 11:10 pm: I just read Scott McLeod’s Understanding Comics last month and the points he makes about how it works–like the time/space shifts between panels–were fascinating.

[CinyLynn] 11:10 pm: Do you think finding, for example, if you are a writer, the person who will be doing the pencils, is a crucial first step? Because I guess it would allow you to write to the strengths of your partner? Or is that not absolutely so?

[Teresa Wymore] 11:11 pm: If you get a script accepted by a large house, they find your artists, but you’d probably need a completed piece for any newbie.

Teresa Wymore] 11:12 pm: You have to kind of plan ahead to the medium, too…

[CindyLynn] 11:13 pm: This is very true. One of the most wonderful things about this genre is that you can tell so much with pictures. Something important that might take paragraphs to describe, it gets distilled down to one panel.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:13 pm: Traditional comic book size, ebook pdf, digital? Each has a different format.

[CindyLynn] 11:14 pm: And what Teresa mentioned…timing is critical, too. You need to plan carefully to make sure the pacing feels right, that you’re not rushing the reader through.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:14 pm: Then, there are different artists for the project, not always one to pencil, ink, color

[Teresa Wymore] 11:15 pm: As a writer, I find I use too many words and have to trim a lot.

[Deena] 11:15 pm: I think we’re safe assuming everyone here is wanting to write, but they should know what the other people do. What does the penciler do? Who does the inks? When do they do the colors? What about the letterer? How much input does the author have in the output of each of those people?

[CindyLynn] 11:15 pm: That’s what I was asking about, finding the artist, earlier? Because some artists have a style that is very good for that particular story, and some…not so much.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:15 pm: Some of my fave books have had maybe 200 words!

[frasersherman] 11:16 pm: I’ve heard plenty of stories about “that artist was all wrong for my project” from writers at the larger houses.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:16 pm: Yes, artists do have their styles, and there are totally different approaches out there — traditional, manga, comic

[CindyLynn] 11:16 pm: You pencil, generally first. The inker cleans up the pencils, draws and adds definition. The penciled panel will look much different than the inked panel.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:17 pm: If the inker is good

[CindyLynn] 11:17 pm: *lol* Good point.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:17 pm: I don’t think the writer has much input unless you’re a Gaiman or friends with your artist

[CindyLynn] 11:18 pm: The letterer also is not just someone who puts the words in the balloons/captions. The style of lettering can add to the mood of the piece.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:18 pm: It’s a collaboration in a way other writing isn’t.

[frasersherman] 11:18 pm: In some ways it’s closer to theater or film where you have very different disciplines working together.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:19 pm: Most of the art is done digitally these days, pencils scanned in, inks with tablet, colors with tablet in PS

[CindyLynn] 11:20 pm: Which, in some ways, has changed the feel of the comic…at least in the ones where they really take advantage of the technology.

[Deena] 11:20 pm: So, you have a great idea, and you can “see” it in your head. It would be perfect for a graphic novel, you’ve read other people’s work, you kind of know what you like… and then?

[Teresa Wymore] 11:21 pm: Script and submit, but better chance if you can meet up with an artist. Places like Penciljack have amateurs posting.

[CindyLynn] 11:21 pm: I generally tend to write it as a rough script. The first draft is a script where I try and get the idea down. Then I look at it, and I actually do mock up pages…try to see how it paces out. What do I need to add? Cut? How wordy am I being?

[Teresa Wymore] 11:21 pm: Zuda has amateur comics in digital format

[Teresa Wymore] 11:21 pm: You can see what’s out there and what your competition is as far as new things

[Teresa Wymore] 11:22 pm: The big houses have their premium titles of course

[Teresa Wymore] 11:22 pm: A lot of artists can make pretty pictures but can they tell a story in sequentials?

[Teresa Wymore] 11:23 pm: Fraser…very like film i’d say

[CindyLynn] 11:23 pm: And Teresa can tell me if I’m right…but I think it takes a bit more patience in some ways to draw whole books. You don’t just draw a pretty picture and you’re done, but it’s repetitive.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:23 pm: In college i worked on other’s projects

[Teresa Wymore] 11:24 pm: The hardest thing for me? Making the character look like the same person in each panel! It’s harder than you think.

[CindyLynn] 11:24 pm: Makes sense.

[Deena] 11:25 pm: That’s the hardest thing for me, and I mean just drawing someone more than once, they don’t look the same.

[Babs M] 11:25 pm: It’s not just superheroes, either. There’’s a couple romance lines actively seeking
graphic novels…

[Teresa Wymore] 11:26 pm: Oh my, yes…all kinds of genres

[Teresa Wymore] 11:26 pm: but still, the bulk aimed at young men/boys

[frasersherman] 11:26 pm: And even the mainstream companies have things like Air or Ex Machina

[Teresa Wymore] 11:27 pm: Reminds me….i once had a letter published in Savage Sword of Conan (way back when!) complaining about the women like Red Sonja drawn like a barmaid when she should be a muscled hero like Conan! Twenty-five years later, now’s my chance to bring strong females to life!

[CindyLynn] 11:27 pm: The beauty of it is that there is a lot of room, I think. That’s the first thing a lot of people forget…that it is a medium.

[widdershins] 11:27 pm: From a writing perspective what’s the distillation process from written MS to graphic novel/comic?

[CindyLynn] 11:28 pm: I think one of the important things to note here is that the format is so different when you write it? So there’s not a lot of…for me…distillation per se?

[Teresa Wymore] 11:28 pm: The writer is expected to break up the story into panels. There will be editing to fit pages and artists renderings down the road, but you really have ot know the medium.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:28 pm: You can’t just write a short story and submit.

[CindyLynn] 11:28 pm: Because the directions say something like: PaN 1 Pg 1 we see Cindy doing jumping jacks on a mountain. The mountain is tall and jagged. And so on…the panel is described.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:29 pm: yep

[Babs M] 11:29 pm: more like a script?

[CindyLynn] 11:29 pm: Yes, exactly.

[CindyLynn] 11:29 pm: You have the panel described. then something like:

[CindyLynn] 11:29 pm: Cindy: Wow, what a nice day!

[Teresa Wymore] 11:29 pm: There are some examples online. I don’t have the links, but google

[Deena] 11:29 pm: Sherman mentioned a Scott McCloud book. Scott has a lot of great titles, including Understanding Comics, Reinventing Comics and Making Comics.

[frasersherman] 11:30 pm: He’s really remarkable. And a lot of Understanding Comics I think applies to creative work in general.

[frasersherman] 11:30 pm: I look forward to rereading it and thinking it over some more.

[CindyLynn] 11:30 pm: Also, I really do like “Panel One” by Kurt Busiek.

[Deena] 11:30 pm: Thanks, Cindy. I was going to go back and look for that.

[CindyLynn] 11:31 pm: And the sequel is…wait for it!

[CindyLynn] 11:31 pm: Panel Two

[frasersherman] 11:31 pm: Busiek’s Astro City series is an interesting variation on super-heroics, too: What it’s like from the point of view of the guy on the street watching everything happen.

[Deena] 11:31 pm: Brian Michael Bendis recommends Story: Substance Structure, Style and the Principles of Screen Writing by Robert McKee.

[widdershins] 11:32 pm: @Teresa there’s a couple of strong female lead driven comics out now that I’ve heard of…. Buffy and Batwoman any thoughts about how their longevity?

[frasersherman] 11:32 pm: The new Zatanna series by Paul Dini looks promising. Based on only the first issue, of course.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:32 pm: Buffy has a lot of traction because of the show, of course, and Whedon. I love it, but I’m not sure it’s a great comic

[CindyLynn] 11:33 pm: There’s also Wonderwoman, who has just gotten a recent re-boot. I doubt she’ll ever die.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:33 pm: Batwoman is aimed at the main market I think, despite some unusual story lines.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:33 pm: Death and Sandman are my faves…vertigo and darkhorse pubs

[CindyLynn] 11:34 pm: I would like to mention the comic series Fables, since it has to do with our own Press’s favorite theme…they have some good characters, and interesting twists.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:34 pm: But I do have subs to Buffy and Batwoman!

[frasersherman] 11:34 pm: Fables–I was about to recommend that.

[Deena] 11:34 pm: I love Fables, also Courtney Crumrin.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:34 pm: Yes…was just browsing that today

[CindyLynn] 11:34 pm: I have a very tiny crush on the Big Bad wolf…

[frasersherman] 11:34 pm: Air and House of Mystery, also good.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:35 pm: Black Dossier

[frasersherman] 11:35 pm: Though more of my money goes on collections these days. One of the black and whites gives me way more pages than the same amounts spent on regular monthly books.

[CindyLynn] 11:35 pm: One of my very favorite comics, that I constantly recommend is by Craig Thompson, a large graphic novel called Blankets.

[CindyLynn] 11:36 pm: It’s about being a comic book writer, religious guilt, love….

[David Sklar] 11:36 pm: Has anyone checked out “Daytripper”?

[frasersherman] 11:36 pm: Daytripper?

[Teresa Wymore] 11:36 pm: vertigo title, awesome

[David Sklar] 11:36 pm: It’s a new title from Vertigo–think it’s about 4 or 5 issues in.

[CindyLynn] 11:36 pm: Fraser, I’m the same. I like having them all nice and collected, I fear.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:37 pm: It’s crazy

[frasersherman] 11:37 pm: And with new comics, I can flip through a collection, decide if a promising first issue continued well. And then buy.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:37 pm: I have only 1-2! I lost track

[CindyLynn] 11:38 pm: I live in the sticks, where a comic book shop is really few and far between, so I got into the habit of waiting until they got collected.

[frasersherman] 11:38 pm: Making note to check it out …

[frasersherman] 11:38 pm: I live in a bigger city than I did, but the stores are all further away.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:38 pm: TFAW

[Teresa Wymore] 11:38 pm: I get everything through them

[CindyLynn] 11:38 pm: Ah!

[Teresa Wymore] 11:39 pm: tfaw.com

[widdershins] 11:39 pm: This is a twofer …What separates a graphic novel from a novel/book with pictures eg children’s books? And is the difference between a comic and a graphic novel just a matter of size… I’m assuming it’s not but what do I know!

[Teresa Wymore] 11:40 pm: I think there used to be a difference, but marketing has changed that. long comics and collections are called graphic novel, probably because it sounds more literate

[frasersherman] 11:40 pm: Theoretically, a graphic novel tells a novel-sized story. In marketing and popular usage, a graphic novel and a TPB collection are the same thing.

[frasersherman] 11:40 pm: Or, what Teresa said.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:40 pm: And what Fraser said

[frasersherman] 11:41 pm: But if you look at something like Maus or Alice in Sunderland, you can see a difference.

[Deena] 11:41 pm: A children’s story with pictures is usually one panel per page and much more text.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:41 pm: The explosion of manga has changed all definitions, too

[Teresa Wymore] 11:41 pm: Hate Manga art. Just hate it. Stories are often extraordinary.

[frasersherman] 11:42 pm: Don’t mind manga art if I like the story.

[frasersherman] 11:42 pm: But in comics I’ve always found it easier to endure bad art than a bad story.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:43 pm: Fraser! I’m just the opposite. Probably because I’m shallow by nature

[Deena] 11:44 pm: So once a new author has his or her new graphic novel all planned out, the script written, what do you recommend? They should find an artist to work with? They should submit it to larger publishers? They should try to find an agent?

David Sklar] 11:47 pm: @Deena–it depends a lot on the type of story. If you’re
telling an adventure/action story, then you want to send the script to a publisher
or agent and let them match you with an artist, but if you’re doing an arthouse
story, you want to send it to an arthouse publisher with the art already done.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:44 pm: I don’t want to discourage anyone, and for every rule there’s a rule breaker, but without art, a comic script is not even a short story.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:45 pm: Places like Zuda are begining to feed into the professional level–like the minor leagues. Get a start there, but get an artist

[widdershins] 11:45 pm: @ both Teresa and Fraser …strong feelings about
manga… can you expand on that?

[frasersherman] 11:46 pm: I like some stories. I don’t find the art particularly works for me, but as I said, I can live with that. I don’t read a lot of manga though, simply because there’s so much else I’d sooner read.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:47 pm: I grew up on 70’s comics–Conan, Daredevil, Tarzan. I love the American art form that tries for realism and DETAIL. Detail in scens is the same as detail in story–it makes the world. Manga does without that for the sake of quick devleopment or at worst, poor artistry.

[frasersherman] 11:47 pm: I think part of the appeal is that a lot of it is different in style from what I’d find in an American book.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:48 pm: My nephews love Manga and draw it..is it because they like the form or because it’s easier? I don’t know.

[Deena] 11:48 pm: Thanks, David!

[David Sklar] 11:49 pm: You’re welcome. Mind you, I’ve never successfully sold a
comics script.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:49 pm: Tough market

[frasersherman] 11:49 pm: Going back to the graphic novel/comics difference: One big change in the industry from when I started reading in the sixties is that it’s now possible to end a successful series–12 issues, 60 issues, whatever, it reaches an end point and it’s done. Which has a big change on the shape of storytelling compared to someone like Spider-Man or Batman who keeps going.

[Deena] 11:49 pm: Michael has, but he had an unexpected issue.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:50 pm: Darn!

[Deena] 11:50 pm: So we’re talking to people who’ve tried, which is much more than most of us have done.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:50 pm: Maybe we can ask him to post some thoughts
to questions as a post at Coyote? [Editor's note: We'll ask!]

[CindyLynn] 11:50 pm: It is a tough market. But it’s also very worthwhile.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:51 pm: We can ask real nicely

[frasersherman] 11:51 pm: I submitted a miniseries idea to first comics in the eighties. but when they asked for more information, I realized in hindsight, I didn’t develop the proposal the way I should have.

[Deena] 11:51 pm: how’s that, Fraser?

[frasersherman] 11:52 pm: That is, hindsight, after I’d submitted more information. In the sense that I needed a synopsis and breakdown of the detail and I didn’t give them anything of the sort–more like a back-cover blurb. I think my limits must have been obvious when they read it.

[Deena] 11:52 pm: Cindy, you said it’s very worthwhile. Why? Why should these authors write a comic or a graphic novel?

[CindyLynn] 11:53 pm: It’s worthwhile first, if you’re drawn to it. It’s just the same idea if you only like to write short stories, or if your stories feel more novel length.

[CindyLynn] 11:53 pm: But it’s a completely different way of telling a story.

[CindyLynn] 11:53 pm: Your mind works so differently. And it’s a great genre, with a million possibilities.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:53 pm: Your story will appeal to a new market

[Teresa Wymore] 11:54 pm: You’ll see your world as well as imagine it

[CindyLynn] 11:54 pm: I don’t think it gets used enough…there are great stories that deserve to be told.

[frasersherman] 11:54 pm: And the more fields you can be successful in, the better for your overall career.

[Deena] 11:54 pm: As a publisher, I love the idea of publishing illustrated stories for adults, in this standard format or something else, and an author with a good story and an artist already lined up they worked well with would be wonderful.

[frasersherman] 11:54 pm: And what CindyLynn said.

[Deena] 11:54 pm: Or, like Teresa, both in one person.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:55 pm: I’m not sure I work well with myself

[Deena] 11:55 pm: hee!

[Teresa Wymore] 11:55 pm: Lots of fighting, artistic differences

[David Sklar] 11:55 pm: Are there any plans to open Drollerie up to comics?

[Deena] 11:55 pm: Yes, actually.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:55 pm: YESSSSSS!

[David Sklar] 11:55 pm: Ooooooh!

[Deena] 11:56 pm: I’ve been trying to for the last year. Teresa’s the first person who brought me a proposal I could love.

[frasersherman] 11:56 pm: Interesting.

[Deena] 11:56 pm: I think the genres we represent would make great graphic stories.

[CindyLynn] 11:57 pm: What do you need to submit?

[frasersherman] 11:57 pm: I agree.

[Deena] 11:57 pm: Best would be the whole thing, art and all.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:57 pm: Yes, and YA graphic novels are really booming,aren’t they?

[Deena] 11:57 pm: Second best would be the story, with some idea of the style of art you want.

[Deena] 11:57 pm: Yes, they are Teresa, and we do love our YA.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:58 pm: I wish I could write something besides smut

[widdershins] 11:58 pm: how will it work with all the versions of e-readers, given the quality of their graphics is so varied?

[Teresa Wymore] 11:58 pm: Okay, I really don’t

[widdershins] 11:58 pm: @Teresa…. smut sells

[Teresa Wymore] 11:58 pm: I thought quality was pretty good across the board, just different format sizes?

[Deena] 11:58 pm: Wid, graphic novels, for us, will probably start in PDF and be available in print on demand.

[Deena] 11:58 pm: Not really, Teresa, some don’t even accept images.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:58 pm: Really???

[Deena] 11:59 pm: Yes, really.

[Teresa Wymore] 11:59 pm: I use my iPod. What do I know?

[Deena] 11:59 pm: Then we’ll do Apple and epub.

[Deena] 11:59 pm: We probably won’t do the other formats at all.

[widdershins] 11:59 pm: yeah… you’ve gotta read the fine print on the media blitzes

[Deena] 12:00 am: I think formatting for smaller readers, iphones, and so on, will be a challenge, but doable. It won’t be exactly the traditional format.

[Deena] 12:00 am: probably one panel per page, and no full-page panels at all, so some won’t work for smaller readers.

[Teresa Wymore] 12:00 am: I view comics on my iPhone all the time…pdf/whole page is best but some presses are doing the panel-by-opanel. It all works well

[Teresa Wymore] 12:01 am: Not sure I like those panel-by-panel…you miss the organic page and panel interactions

[Deena] 12:01 am: Teresa, I wish you could send me a screenshot somehow.

[Teresa Wymore] 12:01 am: But big houses have all done them

[Teresa Wymore] 12:01 am: I’ll find a recent one

[Teresa Wymore] 12:02 am: I can screenshot anything on the iPhone

[frasersherman] 12:02 am: I agree, Teresa. To work best you’d have to write it differently–the way a daily comic-strip is paced differently from a comic-book.

[Deena] 12:02 am: I like the full page best, because, as Teresa mentioned, there’s tension between the panels, and you lose that when you go too micro.

[Deena] 12:02 am: Obviously, we’re working out details, and new options are opening up all the time.

[widdershins] 12:03 am: it’s like there’s this wild frontier happening with the e-world.. its wonderful

[Deena] 12:03 am: It’s pretty nifty.

[frasersherman] 12:04 am: It certainly opens a lot more venues for being published in.

[Teresa Wymore] 12:04 am: Totally

[Deena] 12:04 am: Thanks Teresa, Fraser, Cindy, and David. Thank you everyone for coming.

[Teresa Wymore] 12:04 am: Thanks!

[frasersherman] 12:04 am: My pleasure.

[CindyLynn] 12:04 am: Thank you. It’s always wonderful to get to do these sorts of things.

[frasersherman] 12:05 am: And good night.